Widescreen Gaming Forum
http://www.wsgf.org/phpBB3/

Bioshock: artistic vision - or not as the case may be
http://www.wsgf.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=14906		 Page 56 of 81
Author:  Mesuge [ 23 Aug 2007, 14:28 ]
Post subject:  Bioshock in SoftTH on video!
G'day guys!
I hope I'm not jumping the gun here but the first Bioshock video in TH has been made on the SoftTH platform! We used the great Racer_S patch but as you can learn from the Kegetys' forum the FOV has not been tweaked properly for this first "proof of concept" video at that moment but there will more flics soon in greater quality hopefully..

Credit goes to Kegetys, WarMace, Racer_S & Paddywak as well as my friend deLabus 2.x

Bioshock thread on SoftTH forum:
http://www.kegetys.net/forum

video Youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CG0U-ETo40


PS you are perfectly allowed to spread the message across, especially
some of the 4:3 maniacs at 2K forum might get a good seizure from this
surround gaming TH beauty, eh like the "game devs wanted it to be played" ah..
Author:  Drexion [ 23 Aug 2007, 14:56 ]
Post subject:  Bioshock: artistic vision - or not as the case may be
It's funny how several new members of widescreengamingforum appear to have joined our community on or about August 21st solely to post about the Bioshock widescreen controversy (some have posted only in this thread) ... and they didn't register to look for a solution, but only to advocate the 2k company position, hook, line and sinker. Isn't that a coincidence?
It could just be coincidence, after all since the bioshock widescreen debacle broke this site has been linked to on tons of other sites.

Most users ever online was 806 on Tue Aug 21, 2007

Hehe, any admins want to share a WSGF Bandwidth Statistics or Visitors Statistics graph for August :p
Author:  greylantern [ 23 Aug 2007, 15:32 ]
Post subject:  Bioshock: artistic vision - or not as the case may be
*IMPORTANT*

2k Mods have just closed all threads relating to seperate complaints to tidy up their forum into single NEW threads (fair enough).

So although you are all probably sick to the back teeth of it, now is your chance to really voice your opinon on why it's broken,

YOu should post because I have a feeling if they see 'low numbers' in this new thread they will assume it's a non issue (even though the old theads had hundreds of thousands of views and shitloads of pages)

http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6627

Post here.

And remember trolls by 2Ks own wishes this is a thread ONLY for those with PROBLEMS to post them, NOT FOR TROLLS to come in and try and tell us we are wrong.
Author:  maskdmirag [ 23 Aug 2007, 15:51 ]
Post subject:  Bioshock: artistic vision - or not as the case may be
[quote]
Now my question is: If the FOV were something that the majority of widescreen users found appropriate (not changed to, but had originally been). BUT the 4:3 version still maintained the same FOV using added horizontal space instead of letterboxing, would we still be having this argument?

Yes, we would. It might not be quite as big an issue, but there's still a problem - explained in my next comment.


I basically want to know is: Do the members of this forum feel that Widescreen HAS to have a wider FOV for games than 4:3 in every case? And if so, why?

If the FOV isn't wider, it's not just a matter of there being less environment visible, it also changes the perceived perspective. As you may have noticed the vert- implementation has the effect of making widescreen looked zoomed-in in comparison to the 4:3. With a hor+ implementation 4:3 and widescreen look the exact same in terms of perspective/zoom, there's just a little extra visible environement on the sides in widescreen. The thing is that perspective/zoom has a much greater effect on the experience than how much of the environment you can see. To keep the game experience as consistent as possible you should keep the perspective/zoom the same for all aspect ratios and simply vary how much horizontal space is visible, to do that as the aspect gets wider, the FOV must get wider along with it.

If you wish to know my personal opinion it is that the developers, much like a movie director, are entitled to their creative vision and if they say they intended the fov to be this way I will take them at their word and enjoy the game as they delivered it. (However I am curious to try the fov hack after I complete the game and see how the experience differs for better or worse)

Yes it is their choice, but all art has standards by which it's judged. Say for example that you couldn't save your game, and they claimed that the lack of saves was a creative choice because they want you to play through the game in one sitting. Would you accept this, would you not criticize them for not having save capability like every other game on the market?

Many other video game developers have implemented hor+ widescreen, largely considered to be the correct, or at the very least, superior widescreen implementation because of the perspective/zoom issue as described above. Why should we not hold Bioshock to the same standards established by other games? So while it may have been their choice, it doesn't mean that it was the best one, or that we have to like it.

One of the great things about games is that criticism such as this can be much more easily addressed than other artistic mediums. Heck Racer_S did it in less than 48 hours and he wasn't even involved the game's development. So, we might seem spoiled for asking them to match a technical standard set by other games, but in the end we're really not asking for that much.

Thanks, that is honestly the first reasonable argument I've heard on this forum that didn't feel like a case of entitlement to me.

Now, sadly I am not a game designer (as much as I want to be) But I do want to make one last point about whether or not it's "simple" to make the fix. What about game balance? If the game was developed and play tested with the current settings, does a wider fov potentially make the game easier?

It's funny that you mention the idea of no saves, the first time I saw the vita-chamber in the demo I actually thought they had made that decision, to not allow saves, just reset you from the last vita chamber :P.

I think in the end, like you said Art is open to critique. You guys are certainantly allowed to not like the artistic decision and other people are entitled to agree with the artistic decision. I think it's a very interesting thing for future developers to consider, how do we manage to satisfy both 4:3 and 16:9 users when in the end we want them to both have the same experience.
Author:  Sweetz [ 23 Aug 2007, 17:22 ]
Post subject:  Bioshock: artistic vision - or not as the case may be

Now, sadly I am not a game designer (as much as I want to be) But I do want to make one last point about whether or not it's "simple" to make the fix. What about game balance? If the game was developed and play tested with the current settings, does a wider fov potentially make the game easier?

When I first got my widescreen monitor I replayed several games with hor+ widescreen implementations that I had already played in 4:3 (among them Doom3, Half-Life 2, and FEAR). In my experience there was no appreciable difference in gameplay, I found them to be no more or less challenging as they were previously. The only difference was I found them to be much more immersive in widescreen.

The gameplay of modern single player FPSes is more about defating enemies whose presence is known than it is about finding those enemies. At least from the demo, Bioshock doesn't seem to be about enemies sneaking up on you, it was always obvious where the enemies were - the gameplay was all about the various means to fight them. Even for a game like Doom 3, which is about enemies sneaking up on you, the enemies typically either come out of the dark directly in front of you, or spawn behind you; so having a bit more visible space on the sides has no effect on it's scare mechanics.

When you play FPSes you pick up visual scanning as a habit so you're typically aware of the whole environment regardless. Widescreen means you have to move a bit less to scan the same area, but again I don't think it has any noticable effect on gameplay.
Author:  thefunk007 [ 23 Aug 2007, 18:31 ]
Post subject:  Bioshock: artistic vision - or not as the case may be
I have followed he instructions and adjusted the bars ont he hack as someone suggested for my set-up 1920 x 1200 - I then load Bioshock up in direct x 9 and push the numlock key and nothing happens it all stays the same?

Am i doing it correctly?

Cheers,
Lea
Author:  Vroshnak [ 23 Aug 2007, 18:39 ]
Post subject:  Bioshock: artistic vision - or not as the case may be
I have followed he instructions and adjusted the bars ont he hack as someone suggested for my set-up 1920 x 1200 - I then load Bioshock up in direct x 9 and push the numlock key and nothing happens it all stays the same?

Am i doing it correctly?

Cheers,
Lea


With NumLock ON, the * key (on the numpad) should activate the hack, the / key (next to it) should turn it off, and + and - (still on the numpad) manipulate the horizontal field of view.
Author:  Blinky [ 23 Aug 2007, 20:10 ]
Post subject:  Bioshock: artistic vision - or not as the case may be
[quote]It's funny how several new members of widescreengamingforum appear to have joined our community on or about August 21st solely to post about the Bioshock widescreen controversy (some have posted only in this thread) ... and they didn't register to look for a solution, but only to advocate the 2k company position, hook, line and sinker. Isn't that a coincidence?
It could just be coincidence, after all since the bioshock widescreen debacle broke this site has been linked to on tons of other sites.

No, I think you misunderstood me or I just wasn't making myself clear ... I know traffic jumped a lot after this site identified the problems with Bioshock and a lot of people who maybe never heard of the forum signed up out of curiosity or because they were honestly looking for more information about the issue or widescreen gaming in general.

That's not who I'm talking about. I'm talking about the handful of users who registered only to post over and over again in defense of 2k using language that is remarkably similar to language that 2k itself now uses, while they label those of us who try to point out the obvious, "fanatics." I'm suggesting that they aren't just "random posters. They have some sort of connection to 2k.

One of them, "Evilcornbread," even suggests as much here, when challenged by ttraveler on his claim that the zoomed in widescreen was a "design decision ... "

http://www.widescreengamingforum.com/node/8018

[quote]Please provide a link to where it says it was deliberately chosen.

Well, I did say "if". :-)

And I'll let the developers speak for themselves. It's certainly not my place to publicly quote anyone that I've talked to about it.

"Evilcornbread" is clearly suggesting that he's spoken to the developers privately about this issue, but won't quote them publicly.

That doesn't strike me as the musings of a random poster with no connections to 2k.
Author:  greylantern [ 23 Aug 2007, 22:03 ]
Post subject:  Bioshock: artistic vision - or not as the case may be
Blinky you may have a point - that would genuinely be scary if true. I could never trust the company again.

Don't forget new widescreen thread ('official') that needs your support over at 2k forums to show it's a problem that we'd like fixed.

And don't forget to add the trolls to your ignore list (you have to click on their name in their posts first)

http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=135107
Author:  Zuffox [ 24 Aug 2007, 01:47 ]
Post subject:  Bioshock: artistic vision - or not as the case may be
Hai guise (I love how your activation mail included my password ...).

I've made a teensy, weensy post to serve as some food for thought to finally put a hault to all the WSG people always have to come defend their cause:

I know it's a very complex matter, but wouldn't it be better for the widescreen dudes (myself included) to make a compiled explanation of the whole matter - or an FAQ?

It's not an incredibly easy thing to grasp, and having to go through a plethora of posts from the WSG people is far from an easy way to fathom the whole thing. I know Gabbo loses a facial nerve, every time he has to reiterate, so if he could just resort to a "RTFM", every time a new bystander has the same old repeated answer, everyone would be better off. In case a new - somewhat intelligent and noteworthy - argument were raised by a person disagreeing upon the buggedness of the game in regards to proper widescreen-showing, an addition/edit to the big post to end all arguments could be made.

This would of course not make everyone see the truth(TM), but at least it would be the greatest way to say that every possible attempt at getting every non-widescreen-keen people to understand it had been made.

I've collected a series of links made throughout the whole debacle, but some of them are unintelligible, some too long-winded and some with a diffuse relevance. I included some links regarding the argumentative validity of 2K's so-called "artistic vision", too.

[Links - go to the direct link to see them]

As for the people against a fix for this issue, they are of course compelled to make an intellible one post argumentary answer. Obviously, how people subjectively feel about this and that is immaterial, as scientific facts and not the personal likings of people are relevant is such a turbulent debate such as this should do the talking - that is also in the best interest of being fair to 2K, I am sure.


http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=136733&postcount=305

Carry on.
Page 56 of 81 All times are UTC [ DST ]
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/