Widescreen Gaming Forum

Windows 7 required. SLI required. Monster power reqs & scorching temps. Just some of the reasons why I'm getting ready to pull the trigger on my very first ATI card (Toxic 5850) after 10+ years on NVIDIA (before that 3dfx, may they rest in peace). Despite my research I'm still a little nervous...my new card better play nice with my TH2Go.

I would also point out that the NV Surround offers fewer options for display configuration. It doesn't offer 3x2 or 5x1-P (though this one is also still in the works with ATI). People are complaining about issues with different monitors and bezel compensation on Eyefinity. Even when monitors have the same specs, faulty EDID is causing issues. I wonder how stringent the requirements are going to be for "same resolution, refresh rate and sync polarity." We do know that you can mix resolutions on Eyefinity.

[quote]They better release Vista support, I've never had a problem with vista so I'm not paying for Windows 7 until there enough DX11 games

What, for you, is the correlation between DX11 and Windows 7?

I was under the impression that DX11 was the same as DX10 in that it wasn't going to be released on the earlyer operating systems. That still doesn't change the fact I have no incentive to upgrade my graphics card or operating systems, DX11 as good as it is, isn't supported on any game I have or am likely to get any time soon. And my pair of GTX295, hell one of them, is doing more then a great job running every game I have atm at 5040x1050.

_________________
: ) Skid : )
My Multi-Monitor Focused YouTube Channel: http://www.youtube.com/c/SkidIncGaming
My Twitch channel which I've been known to stream on from time to time: http://www.twitch.tv/SkidInc
"Imagination is the only weapon in the war against reality."

Thanks for the info. I'm right about to go for Eyefinity with 3x24" and a 5870CF but in the forums one can read several problems with CF plus Eyefinity. That's why I haven't decided yet. It's ridiculous - ATI which brings inferior Dual-GPU technology (larger mircostuttering and worse scaling in CF compared to SLI) pushes Eyefinity which is really the only thing worth spending a leg on a High-End CF.

I think some of the impressions you have for Crossfire X are more like "legacy" opinions. Multi-panel changes the game somewhat (but we don't yet understand how NVIDIA will perform at all with their requirements), but generally single panel scaling is a wash between us and NVIDIA. To illustrate the point, here are some conclusions from the recent rash of GTX 400 SLI reviews:

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/NVIDIA/GeForce_GTX_480_SLI/31.html

This is what makes performance figures of GTX 480 SLI less than impressive as a solution. With multi-GPU scaling, as expected, GTX 480 scales better with increase in resolutions over the single GTX 480. However, compared to Radeon HD 5870 in its 2-card CrossFire setup, the scaling is a little worse (overall 41% for GTX 480 SLI vs. 43% for HD 5870 CrossFire), an area that needs attention from NVIDIA.

http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/forum/hardware-canucks-reviews/30999-nvidia-geforce-gtx-470-sli-review-18.html

However, the facts are quite clear: in general, ATI’s cards offer better multi GPU scaling than anything NVIDIA can currently offer. Believe it or not, NVIDIA’s SLI scaling is actually very, very good considering we saw on average a 60% to 81% increase when going from one card to two. We’re just not that excited about it because ATI threw a live hand grenade into the SLI party by posting performance increases that were simply jaw-dropping in nearly every respect. It is because of this dual card scaling that a HD 5850 Crossfire setup can make up a ton of lost ground when compared to ATI’s single GPU scores. On the other hand, the HD 5970 is simply trampled by the GTX 470 SLI setup.

[quote]Thanks for the info. I'm right about to go for Eyefinity with 3x24" and a 5870CF but in the forums one can read several problems with CF plus Eyefinity. That's why I haven't decided yet. It's ridiculous - ATI which brings inferior Dual-GPU technology (larger mircostuttering and worse scaling in CF compared to SLI) pushes Eyefinity which is really the only thing worth spending a leg on a High-End CF.

I think some of the impressions you have for Crossfire X are more like "legacy" opinions. Multi-panel changes the game somewhat (but we don't yet understand how NVIDIA will perform at all with their requirements), but generally single panel scaling is a wash between us and NVIDIA. To illustrate the point, here are some conclusions from the recent rash of GTX 400 SLI reviews:

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/NVIDIA/GeForce_GTX_480_SLI/31.html

This is what makes performance figures of GTX 480 SLI less than impressive as a solution. With multi-GPU scaling, as expected, GTX 480 scales better with increase in resolutions over the single GTX 480. However, compared to Radeon HD 5870 in its 2-card CrossFire setup, the scaling is a little worse (overall 41% for GTX 480 SLI vs. 43% for HD 5870 CrossFire), an area that needs attention from NVIDIA.

http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/forum/hardware-canucks-reviews/30999-nvidia-geforce-gtx-470-sli-review-18.html

However, the facts are quite clear: in general, ATI’s cards offer better multi GPU scaling than anything NVIDIA can currently offer. Believe it or not, NVIDIA’s SLI scaling is actually very, very good considering we saw on average a 60% to 81% increase when going from one card to two. We’re just not that excited about it because ATI threw a live hand grenade into the SLI party by posting performance increases that were simply jaw-dropping in nearly every respect. It is because of this dual card scaling that a HD 5850 Crossfire setup can make up a ton of lost ground when compared to ATI’s single GPU scores. On the other hand, the HD 5970 is simply trampled by the GTX 470 SLI setup.

The biggest surprise for me, even after a brief benchmarking stint in the GeForce GTX 480 review, was the comparison of SLI scaling performance to CrossFire scaling. The boost attributable to SLI is so significant that it actually alters the “value” of buying SLI or CrossFire. You pay more for a pair of GTX 480s, yes, but the corresponding performance increase results in lower cost/average performance than the Radeons.

http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/geforce-gtx-480-3-way-sli-crossfire,review-31886-16.html

_________________
: ) Skid : )
My Multi-Monitor Focused YouTube Channel: http://www.youtube.com/c/SkidIncGaming
My Twitch channel which I've been known to stream on from time to time: http://www.twitch.tv/SkidInc
"Imagination is the only weapon in the war against reality."

Nice move Skid :lol:

Now let's all try to stay on topic, shall we ?

As I said, its basically a wash and going to alter dependant on the titles tested.

As I said, its basically a wash and going to alter dependant on the titles tested.

I know but you posted two links that showed ATI as better, so I figured I would balance out your own statement for you :wink:

_________________
: ) Skid : )
My Multi-Monitor Focused YouTube Channel: http://www.youtube.com/c/SkidIncGaming
My Twitch channel which I've been known to stream on from time to time: http://www.twitch.tv/SkidInc
"Imagination is the only weapon in the war against reality."

I just wouldn't spend cash on a 480 SLI due to heat ands noise dissipation. My case is not "Fermi-certified". :lol: Though I heard many times that ATI-drivers are not as good as nvidia's. I trust more in user-reviews and experiences from friends than in reviews from pro sites who get these cards for free. I think they are all more or less biased.

I'm very pleased with my nvidia card and driver now - it just lacks the power I need. Ahh why the hell nvidia screwed Fermi. Hope there will be some infos on nvidia Surround soon. I will decide in June I think....

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AMD X2 4800+ | Gigabyte K8N Ultra-SLI | 2GB Kingston VS DDR1-400 | Zotac GTX260 AMP! + Gigabyte 8400GS | 3x Samsung HD 2.1TB | SB X-Fi | Seasonic M12-600 | Chieftec CS-601 blue | Dell 2407WFP + Dell 1707FP Dualhead

I just wouldn't spend cash on a 480 SLI due to heat ands noise dissipation. My case is not "Fermi-certified". :lol: Though I heard many times that ATI-drivers are not as good as nvidia's. I trust more in user-reviews and experiences from friends than in reviews from pro sites who get these cards for free. I think they are all more or less biased.

I'm very pleased with my nvidia card and driver now - it just lacks the power I need. Ahh why the hell nvidia screwed Fermi. Hope there will be some infos on nvidia Surround soon. I will decide in June I think....

I wish to address that part in red and will probably offend people a lot and sound arrogant at the same time. But, I think it needs to be said. Its NOT directed towards you, Bluesilentpro, but in general, so please don't take this personal!

PEBKEC (Problem Exist Between Keyboard And Chair).

Thats correct. You and me. We are the driver issues or PEBKEC.

Let me illustrate, using myself as example (to take the edge of the offending and arrogant part):

Software:
Before last weekend, my system was rock stable. No crashes and games were flying. Then I decided to install a lot of games. Some new and some older. I got grey screens (GSODs) very fast in games and benchmarks. I could have reacted like "OMG, F**** ATI drivers, must be that since games crash". Instead, I went into Event manager and checked for any errors, thinking that this might be the usual PEBKEC. Found an error with atksgt not being able to start. Atksgt is a part of TAGES copy protection. So, I went to their homepage and installed their 64-bit version and problem was solved.

Hardware:
I had a lot of issues with GSODS earlier with my old Asus 5870 card. Tried everything and still GSODs. The only way to avoid the GSODS were to attach a second screen. Then it was rock stable. All the parts was switched and tested, and the card was tested in another machine even. In the end, I figured out the issue. My PSU crashed and took the card with it. Got a new card and I still got GSODS. Turns out that both the PSU's I tested the card with were crashing, so I returned the PSU after tests and it was confirmed failing. Got a new PSU and no GSODS since (besides the previous example caused by TAGES).
But, I did create a thread here on WSGF about this issue, thinking it was GFX related, since all the other hardware tested out ok and my machine was stable before I put in the 5870.

Here's an excelent sticky which explains some of the reasons behind BSODS (and GSODS):
http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=65161
As you can see, most of them are related to hardware failure and software failure not related to the GFX card, even though the error report states that the driver has crashed.

In my opinion, its possible to have rock stable setups on both ATI and Nvidia GFX cards and most of the errors you encounter is not related to the GFX card or drivers (though drivers can fix problems created by others).

Fact is that there is games and software released that doesn't support any driver release properly. I mean, come on, they release a game and though it says on the box "minimum ATI/Nvidia GFX card XXXX" and it turns out that it doesn't work on any driver sets of either ATI or Nvidia? Then the driver teams of ATI or Nvidia fixes this afterward and gets the blame, since after all it was fixed in the driver? A couple of months later, they release a 600mb bugfix patch with contains fixes for all the things that should have been ok when they released/sold the game.

ATI and Nvidia's driver team should get kudos for fixing so many bugs and problems created by games and software developers!

With that said, there are valid problems that ARE caused by drivers, but the majority of problems are PEBKEC related. You and I install hardware and software/games that screw up the machine, or have hardware failing that causes a driver crash.

In the few cases where the drivers actually caused the problem, I can relate to the frustration. But, keep in mind that there are local issues (PEBKEC) and global issues (driver related). Figure out where the issue belongs before going "OMG F@£$€ ATI/Nvidia drivers". Does it work for others? Then chances are that you screwed this up yourself (PEBKEC) like I did in the examples above.

I can understand that some find it more comfortable with the control panel of either ATI or Nvidia, some features in the driver set of ATI or Nvidia or similar and therefore find one better then the other subjectively speaking.

However, when I hear global statements like above, where they say "ATI drivers are not as good as Nvidia's" where they present it as a "matter of fact", I start wondering:

a) is this person a fanboy living in an alternative reality?
b) is this person doing some guerilla marketing for a company?
c) is this person just parroting what they have heard?
d) is this person fustrated because they encountered a PEBKEC error or a driver error which was bad according to his/her usage.

Very seldom I take it as someone who is objective and have actually evaluated the drivers properly. I have yet to see a scientific approach where they have gone through all the facts and drivers over a certain time period and done some comparison. Most of the time, its "how they feel", which is pretty much subjective bullshit.

Since you've heard "ATI-drivers are not as good as nvidia's", I'll do like Skid and balance it a bit ;) :

* Latest driver sets from nvidia are the 190 series. Within that series, there have been several drivers that actually fried cards. A fan bug isn't necessarily critical, but when thermal shutdown isn't working and cards overheat, then its a critical error.
* Scaling has been working/not working like the last probably 10 years depending on driver set.
* nView has been removed from Vista/W7, meaning that people have issues with overscan/undercan without compensation tools
* BFBC2 shows corruption and slow level load (GTX4xx series card and actually game bug, but proving a point, since ATI got blamed for this bug before release of GTX4XX)
* 470 (and probably 480) underperforming in winXP and gets beaten up by a gtx285. Probably bad XP drivers:
http://alienbabeltech.com/main/?p=17550
* Bug that causes Realtec NIC drivers from windows update crash SLI on 470/480 cards (WU problem, but again proving a point)
and more that you can find here as example (I can go on, but I just want to prove a point, not take a dump at Nvidia):
http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showforum=33
http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showforum=26

(yes, ATI has it too, I am just proving a point: http://forums.amd.com/game/categories.cfm?catid=279&entercat=y)

Ask the friends of yours if they factored in or have even knowledge of this before they came with the "ATI-drivers are not as good as Nvidia's" crap. Put them against the wall and say that you need to see some actually objective study of the drivers backing them up and not just some FUD zealot drivel.

Truth is, both driver teams do a terrific job compared to all the alpha and beta games /programs out there and should get kudos for their jobs. If you manage to stay away from PEBKEC errors and are lucky that you have no hardware failing that causes them, chances are that you can have a rock stable setup with both ATI and Nvidia.

When it comes to the 256 drivers, on the other hand, I am not blaming the Nvidia driver team, but Nvidia's PR team. They are currently advertising surround on their boxes and fails to deliver the product. Sure, many boxes might have been printed before Nvidia knew that they wouldn't be capable of releasing the product, but then they should have stopped printing it on the boxes or put a sticker over it saying "coming in a few months".

Instead, there is no official word, after digging on their US homepages (UK still says April), its moved to summer (so they don't even know when they will be released) and boxes are still sold with surround as if they actually are capable of this.

Thats screwing customers and not giving a crap about them. Kyle has been emailing them since the 26th of April and got an answer yesterday that he'll get some info sent to him. Before that, they ignored even Kyle Bennet.

I don't care about ATI vs. Nvidia (sorry Dave, but thats the truth) and I buy whatever product I like. But, I don't like it when our members gets screwed (which is why I reacted strongly when it seemed that ATI was screwing with our surround).

/rant

This might piss someone off, but I think that Nvidia and ATI's driver team should get some recognition and not only the hatred and crap.

That doesn't piss me of. I really appreciate your opinion. Thats the reason for using forums - share opinions. I just wrote what I heard since in don't have experience with ATI for some years (last was a 9800Pro)

a) is this person a fanboy living in an alternative reality? Not in any way. I don't care about vendors and I never did.
b) is this person doing some guerilla marketing for a company? For what purpose? No.
c) is this person just parroting what they have heard? Indeed I did since I have no experience with recent ATIs. Maybe that was wrong.
d) is this person fustrated because they encountered a PEBKEC error or a driver error which was bad according to his/her usage. No, I want to find the best solution for a triplehead. Just this.

For me it was not meant as "a matter of fact" but more as a question to get more opinions. So you gave one and it seems to be very true. Thank you very much. :)

_________________
Intel i7 980X | MSI Big Bang Xpower X58 | 12GB G.Skill Pi Black DDR3-1600 | Sapphire 5870 Vapor-X 2GB | 2x Intel X-25M 160GB | SB X-Fi | Seasonic X-750 | Silverstone FT01 black | 3x HP ZR24w @ 5760x1200 Triplehead

AMD X2 4800+ | Gigabyte K8N Ultra-SLI | 2GB Kingston VS DDR1-400 | Zotac GTX260 AMP! + Gigabyte 8400GS | 3x Samsung HD 2.1TB | SB X-Fi | Seasonic M12-600 | Chieftec CS-601 blue | Dell 2407WFP + Dell 1707FP Dualhead